Monday, 13 April

18:41

Broad Exchange with a Former Catholic, Bible-Only Protestant (vs. John Hallman) [Biblical Evidence for Catholicism]

By Dave Armstrong (4-13-15)
 


This occurred in the combox of an article I did at Catholic365: What to Do About Mediocre, Milky Homilies at Mass (4-11-15). John Hallman's words will be in blue.

* * * * *

Read the Bible, and teach it, and you can't go wrong.

I agree! And teach it within the framework of approved Catholic apostolic tradition, so there is no error, since the devil is the father of lies.

Dave Armstrong LOL! Approved by the church fathers. Men, in other words, who still to this day create new "scripture"? Er, no thanks. I understand that to Catholics, the church takes precedence and must be obeyed but as a non-Catholic, I take my authority from God rather than men. That way, I can avoid those sticky things like purgatory, holy water, Mary as a co-Redemtrix and assumed into heaven. these kinds of things require some pretty agile Bible gymnastics, and my back just isn't into it. Carry on, though Dave!

I feel like a mosquito in a crowded locker room: where to begin?

1. No new Scripture has been created. Where you got such a silly notion, would be fun to find out. Only Holy Scripture is inspired. No dif there.

Apologies, just seems like it with the seeming hierarchy of beliefs that are non-Biblical.

Thanks for the apology, but "seems like it" is inadequate to make such a charge. You must document such [outlandish] charges. Once I called you on it, you realized you couldn't, and retracted it, which is admirable.

2. The Church doesn't take "precedence'; rather, we believe in a "three-legged stool" rule of faith: Bible - Church-Tradition. None is "above" the other, and all harmonize with each other. In Protestantism, it is a free-for-all, with hundreds of denominations (a completely unbiblical concept) offering contradictory interpretations and doctrines: including several that can't be traced back to the early Church or the Bible.

Apart from the (false) slam at Protestantism (great try, you're very funny!), you are entitled to equating the church men with the Bible, but I would politely disagree that there is basis for equivalency there. Not to be trite, but when you equate "God says it", with "man says it" and "we've always done it this way", it just seems like something is a wee bit amiss."

Nothing I said about Protestantism above is false. It's all demonstrably true. No Protestant can deny that there are massive internal contradictions, causing confusion among the flock and (logically necessary) error, in cases of contradiction. Falsehood is not from God; it's from the devil. You have yet to prove falsehood in Catholicism. But everyone knows that falsehood is present in Protestantism somewhere -- simply from the presence of contradiction. It's there, and it has a bad effect, as all untruths do.

I merely noted that in our thinking, the Church isn't above the Bible. That is the standard false stereotype. We believe that the Church and tradition are necessary as frameworks for the proper, unified interpretation of the Bible.

You're the one who claimed you were simply following "God rather than men" (standard Protestant boilerplate rhetoric). I showed that it is not as simple as it sounds: that you still must interpret, and when Protestants do that, they invariably disagree with each other, and so someone is therefore wrong.


http://biblicalcatholicism.com/


3. God gave men authority in His Church to represent Him, starting with Peter. False dichotomy, but a very typical one.

I've read those manly interpretations of the Bible verses, and feel that they are still wrong. There is no apostolic succession if you understand what an apostle was. False assumption to justify the popes, but a very typical one.

Really? So Jesus was wrong, when He said, "You are Peter [Rock] and upon this rock I will build my Church"? [Matthew 16:18] Many of the best Protestant commentators concur that Peter (not just his faith) is the Rock. Thus, God gave men authority over His Church. There are also bishops in the Church, as the Bible repeatedly states. Who is your bishop?

You misunderstand apostolic succession. We're not saying that bishops are apostles, but that they succeed the apostles. This is based on explicit biblical example (Acts 1:20-26, where Judas was replaced). In Acts 1:20, "office" (KJV) is "bishopric" in KJV (derived from the Greek, episkopos). Paul also appears to pass his authority on to Timothy. And so it goes down through history.


4. You don't get your authority "from God" but rather, "from God via some particular Protestant denominational tradition." You then say that is "from God" -- but it assumes a fallacious premise.

Nice try, incorrect, but nice since it is what you have to work with. Let's go for 120,000 denominations, shall we? It's not correct, either, but using hyperbole gives you certain flexibility.

You have not offered any reply to what I wrote. I didn't say "120,000 denominations." I said "hundreds." [in my #2 above] For over ten years now, I have argued against using the large numbers, because they are based on wrong categories. Any number of "churches" or "denominations" beyond ONE is unbiblical. There is but one Church.


5. Ah yes: the obligatory laundry list of despised Catholic doctrines. I defend all at great length, offering many biblical arguments.

I'll check out your blog, thanks. Should be interesting, if my back can hold up to the gyrations needed to justify these."

I'll pray that God will give you patience to be able to "withstand" so much truth. :-)


6. If you are willing to believe ALL the Bible: not just those portions that are predigested and regurgitated back to you via Protestant preaching and man-made denominational tradition, come talk to us in the Catholic Church.

I pray that you do the same, and read the Bible.

I've been reading the Bible and defending it intensely for over 37 years. I even produced my own NT "version".

I've been a Catholic, for many years, and absorbed all the teaching.

You have shown me scarcely any indication that you understand Catholic teaching, or its rationale. Did you ever read Catholic apologetics while you were a Catholic, so you could grasp why you believed what you did as a Catholic?

And believed it, at least until I started reading the Bible and learning a lot more, and in depth.

. . . and took in Protestant interpretations of it, that stem from man-made traditions, insofar as they contradict Catholic teaching.

Then I realized what the true Word of God is, and what salvation is.

What you realized was a particular Protestant version of all that: elements of which are novel and unbiblical and can't be found in the early Church.

These are not incompatible with Catholicism,

Glad to hear you say that. It shows that you are not [theologically] anti-Catholic and totally immune to reason.

but the Catholics put so many things on it, so many rules, regulations, traditions, and yes even made up stuff, that it seems they've gotten away from the message of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, for our salvation.

So you say. I've defended all these things you deny. It's what I do for a living, and my specialty is "biblical evidence for Catholicism." Catholicism is a deeply biblical religion. It delves into Scripture in far more depth than any form of Protestantism ever has, because we believe ALL of Scripture and don't arbitrarily ignore large portions. Protestants must do that because many things in the Bible don't fit into their belief-system, such as, e.g., denominations, Scripture Alone, imputed justification, denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and denial of baptismal regeneration.

We can freely accept and rejoice in all of Scripture, because nowhere does it contradict Catholic teaching.

Thanks for the exchange
.

* * *

Someone else commented:

Amen... but is there any other way for us to reach these Protestants rather than telling them how wrong they are??

Jesus told the Pharisees how wrong they were, in no uncertain terms; substituting their own traditions of men for God's true tradition.

John came in with "guns blazing," and sure enough, is a former Catholic; therefore, he needs to be shown that the false traditions and premises are not in Catholicism, but in the Protestantism that he has adopted. That may come off sounding "negative" but it is exactly what he needs to hear, and so it is loving. It's tough love.

He likely won't accept it now, or even soon, but it never hurts to plant seeds. God can work on Him through His grace, in due course.

In the meantime, many others can read how I respond to him. So it's good all-around.

* * * * *


14:57

Pulp Fiction...a morality play?? [Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

UPDATE - I deleted an ignorant, unintelligent, antisemitic "comment." Don't do it again, or you are banned.

People’s eyebrows generally rocket upward when I state, without a hint of uncertainty or compunction, that Pulp Fiction is a ver-r-r-r-r-ry Catholic film. My interlocutors invariably disagree, citing the number of characters who are scattered merrily along the darker end of the lowlife spectrum.

To which I say, that relative to Christ, we are ALL pretty much situated along the darker end of the lowlife spectrum, even the most infrequent of venial sinners.

The examples are multiple (I'll revise and extend my remarks as time allows), and you may never see this film the same way again.

Here are a few such examples:

1- The stories contained by the film are out of sequence. This is because God is “outside time.”

2- When Vince and Jules (who has abused Scripture his whole “career”) are shot at, from nearly point-blank range, and emerge unscathed, Jules sees a miracle and changes his ways. He becomes transformed by the Divine action he recognizes. "...God stopped the bullets, or He changed Coke to Pepsi, He found my f***ing car keys. You don't judge s*** like this based on merit. Now, whether or not what we experienced was an according-to-Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What IS significant is that I felt the touch of God." In the Letter to the Hebrews, we read that Abraham is saved “through faith". Jules has a conversion and is spared. Vince, does not and is killed shortly after. (More on these facets to follow.)

3- Butch's story pivots around his father's watch. It symbolizes immortality (that whole “being outside of time” thing). It “served” honorably in a military context; it's his “birthright” handed down by ancestors who fought and died. However, Butch has squandered that potential, he hasn't fought for a noble cause, he has just fought as a sport. He doesn’t even feel too much remorse for the other boxer who dies in the match.

Butch goes back to retrieve the watch his father willed him (i.e., by retrieving the watch, he is doing his father’s will) where he encounters Vince, at this point without Jules who has experienced a conversion which Vince explicitly denies, and kills him with the weapon marked for Butch’s death. (The instrument of death becomes, after a chain of events, the catalyst for his forgiveness of Marcellus and the latter’s salvation.)

Butch’s story features a descent into Hell - the basement of the pawn shop used as an S&M rape dungeon. There he's finally presented with a clear decision. He COULD leave Marcellus Wallace (who until moments before tried to have him killed) to the S&M rapists or he could descend into Hell, go back and save him even if he doesn’t deserve being saved.

Butch decides the way of honor, embracing the risks of his military forebears and therefore honoring them. (Ancestors often symbolize God.) To underscore the point, after sifting through more prosaic choices, Butch decides on the weapon that most often is associated with honor, the samurai sword. Having descended into Hell, behaved nobly at great personal risk, he rescues Marcellus thus forgiving him. As a result of Butch’s forgiveness, he gets to leave his past life to a new one on a motorcycle named "Grace."

4- The attaché case that Jules and Vincent went to retrieve? It carries the soul of Marcellus Wallace. In ancient mythology, sometimes monsters would kidnap a soul through the back of the neck; this would explain the Band Aid on Marcellus' neck. What ELSE could Ringo possibly recognize to such an extent as to be rendered stunned in the middle of a heist? Oh, and the combination of the locks? 666.

5- The film opens with Ringo and Honey Bunny holding up a diner, and it ends with Jules choosing to let them live. Jules explicitly says that a) as a result what he’s experienced on this day, he gets to buy Ringo’s life, and b) that he is trying “real hard” to be the shepherd, like we are called upon to bring Christ to others.

Jules’ example teaches us that God’s mercy can be given even to a cold-blooded killer, and that mercy is in no way damaged or “tainted” if it’s manifested to one sinner from another, even the worst and most hardened of sinners. However, Jules recognizes that he has led a violently sinful past, and he recognizes that he, like Cain, must “walk the earth.”

6- In the “Mr. Wolf” scene, we see that as a consequence of his experience, Jules’ hands leave the towel in the bathroom spotlessly white, but Vince’s hands leave his towel red and bloodied. Jules has embraced (even if he hasn’t yet verbalized it) repentance and conversion, while Vince has refused it. The reason there’s even a “Mr. Wolf” scene in the first place is that Vince, somehow accidentally shoots Marvin in the head. Vince, dead in sin and refusing forgiveness, cannot but bring death even when he doesn’t intend to do so. Meanwhile, as we will see in the diner scene, Jules’ is now willfully bringing life to where once he sowed death.

7- We see that Mia is brought back from the dead by Vince acting upon the instructions of Lance (whose name recalls the piercing of Christ’s side, and whose wife is obviously a fan of body piercings) who has a curiously Jesus-like appearance – remember he’s not A Savior, he is, in this one scene, a Savior TYPE. Vince has been given a second chance to see the error of his ways and change, but again he refuses it.

So, um, WHY “litter” the story with pretty much the worst examples of humanity (and their not-quite Ivory Soap Pure behavior/language)? Drug dealers, murderers, organized crime? Because we have to realize that mercy extends to even the lowest of the low, and the low don’t talk like Leave it to Beaver or Shakespeare.

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10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
October 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
29300102030405
06070809101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
27282930310102
September 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
01020304050607
08091011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
29300102030405
August 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293031010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
July 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
30010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031010203
June 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
26272829303101
02030405060708
09101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30010203040506
May 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293001020304
05060708091011
12131415161718
19202122232425
26272829303101
April 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
31010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293001020304
March 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
24252627280102
03040506070809
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
31010203040506
February 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
27282930310102
03040506070809
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627280102
January 2014
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
30310102030405
06070809101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
27282930310102
December 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
25262728293001
02030405060708
09101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30310102030405
November 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293031010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293001
October 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
30010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031010203
August 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
29303101020304
05060708091011
12131415161718
19202122232425
26272829303101
July 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
01020304050607
08091011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
29303101020304
June 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
27282930310102
03040506070809
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
May 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
29300102030405
06070809101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
27282930310102
April 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
01020304050607
08091011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
29300102030405
March 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
25262728010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
February 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293031010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728010203
January 2013
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
31010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031010203
December 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
26272829300102
03040506070809
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
31010203040506
November 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
29303101020304
05060708091011
12131415161718
19202122232425
26272829300102
October 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
01020304050607
08091011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
29303101020304
September 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
27282930310102
03040506070809
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
June 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293031010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293001
May 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
30010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031010203
March 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
27282901020304
05060708091011
12131415161718
19202122232425
26272829303101
February 2012
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
30310102030405
06070809101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
27282901020304
December 2011
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293001020304
05060708091011
12131415161718
19202122232425
26272829303101
November 2011
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
31010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293001020304
July 2011
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
27282930010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
April 2011
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293031010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293001
March 2011
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031010203
November 2010
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
01020304050607
08091011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
29300102030405
August 2010
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
26272829303101
02030405060708
09101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30310102030405
June 2010
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
31010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293001020304
January 2010
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
28293031010203
04050607080910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
December 2009
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
30010203040506
07080910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031010203
November 2009
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
26272829303101
02030405060708
09101112131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
30010203040506